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Date:	12/21/99 10:10:15 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 22 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1548<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Scumbags...<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re Scumbags<BR>
Traveller Webrings<BR>
Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
Re: American Football (was: Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
Re: The Death of Q<BR>
Re: Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Re: Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100<BR>
OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:21:13 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Scumbags...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 9:53 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Scumbags (was: chicks with guns, and 3I porno)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >That's correct and was what I meant, even if I didn't express it<BR>
properly.<BR>
> >The point was that finding said weapon added greatly to the chance of a<BR>
> >successful prosecution because the police knew the scumbag had an illegal<BR>
> >weapon, and the jury had an inkling that the "defendant" couldn't be all<BR>
> >that honest if he had an illegal weapon.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Call me ignorant (because I am, living way out of the CON US), but surely<BR>
if<BR>
> all firearms were illegal, then finding any kind of gun means you can peg<BR>
> the guy for carrying an illegal weapon. And then the jury are pretty damn<BR>
> sure the "defendant" can't be that honest.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Exactly right!  It, according to my copper mates, has made certain issues<BR>
"less grey" in the black and whiteness of things (regarding to why he was<BR>
carrying for example).<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:28:06 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Nick Bradbeer <nickb@ndirect.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 11:17 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >    That's right, the English invented Football . . .<BR>
> >. . . the Australians show them how to play it.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm sure I remember somebody saying that Aussie Rules football is like a<BR>
bar<BR>
> fight. Except that in a bar fight you get to have a drink.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Your point being, cobber?<BR>
<BR>
Oh!  I get it!  Nah, sometimes you just ain't thirsty... ;^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 19:13:38 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Scumbags<BR>
<BR>
>Call me ignorant (because I am, living way out of the CON US), but surely if<BR>
>all firearms were illegal, then finding any kind of gun means you can peg<BR>
>the guy for carrying an illegal weapon. And then the jury are pretty damn<BR>
>sure the "defendant" can't be that honest.<BR>
><BR>
>Nick<BR>
<BR>
Three comments on this (and both should have obvious traveller implications):<BR>
1) In the US, that would require a federal ban (which isn't likely). Due to<BR>
the Second ammendment, the gun lobby, etc, sometimes the system CAN'T<BR>
function.<BR>
<BR>
2) Jury Nullification: The jury can still return a not guilty verdict, if<BR>
they felt the illegal act was justified. Happened locally on a convicted<BR>
felon with a gun. The search was all legal, etc... but the jury returned a<BR>
not guilty, even tho he feessed up that it was in fact his gun, and his<BR>
parole prohibited him having it. He needed it to hunt for food. The jury<BR>
decided his need for food nullified the criminality of his having a gun.<BR>
(He did get put away for a parole violation, however... just not more time<BR>
due to having the illegal gun.)<BR>
<BR>
3) Unlawful Search and Seizure: The US Constitution (and many states'<BR>
constitutions and regulations) have specific protections in place<BR>
regaurding search protocols, and when searches can be done without a<BR>
warrant, and the admissability of items found in various types of searches,<BR>
etc. Many weapons cases are thrown out due to unlawful searches resulting<BR>
in no admissable evidence.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Obviously, not all worlds will have search and seizure<BR>
restrictions; not all will have Jury Trials; not all systems with either<BR>
will actually involve evidenciary methods of guilt determination. Also,<BR>
armed shipping would require an imperial ban... not bloody likely, since<BR>
that would mean increased losses due to piracy around the fringes, and the<BR>
armed pirates would be much more of a threat to civilian shipping.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:14:36 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Webrings<BR>
<BR>
The Deckplan Webring (17 sites)<BR>
<BR>
http://users.hartwick.edu/~smithw/deckring.htm<BR>
<BR>
The main Traveller Webring (153 sites)<BR>
<BR>
http://waystation.hypermart.net/webring/<BR>
<BR>
The Gearhead WebRing (33 sites)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/gearheadring.html<BR>
<BR>
The Reavers' Deep Webring (4 sites)<BR>
<BR>
http://reaversdeep.homepage.com/<BR>
<BR>
Rivals of the Third Imperium Webring (3 sites)<BR>
<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/Traveller/Rivals%20of%20the%20Thir <BR>
d%20Imperium.htm<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he<BR>
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to<BR>
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'"<BR>
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore<BR>
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the<BR>
Tiananmen massacre<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:18:16 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/22/99 at 01:16 AM,  "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>No you didn't, you gave them that strange game with body armour, a<BR>
>>rugby ball and commercial breaks, and basketball.<BR>
<BR>
><Giles> I've always found it odd that a nation which prides itself on its<BR>
>virility feels it has to strap on forty pounds of body armour just to<BR>
>play Rugby....</Giles><BR>
<BR>
Nick, we didn't wear those forty pounds of body armor when American<BR>
Football was young.  No helmets, no padding.  After 18 young men died on<BR>
college football fields during one season early this century people<BR>
started agitating for the colleges to either ban the game or make it more<BR>
safe.  First helmets, then pads, then face guards, more pads, until you<BR>
get up to the 40 pounds of armor.<BR>
<BR>
This makes American football more safe than rugby?  This fall dozens of<BR>
young men suffered broken arms, legs, wreaked knees and suffered<BR>
concussions playing football here in my local area.  One 16 year old died<BR>
during football practice, another is parapelgic. Multiply that by several<BR>
thousand other communities across America. Every year college athletes<BR>
suffer crippling injuries, some cause lifetime disabilities.  For<BR>
professionals, concussions, temporary paralysis (there are "stingers" in<BR>
almost every game now),<BR>
compressed and fractured vertebra, fractures in hands, feet, arms and<BR>
legs, broken ribs, ligament and cartilage damage and the threat of<BR>
quadrapelgia are a constant threat throughout their careers.  If they play<BR>
a whole career crippling disability almost a certainty before they reach<BR>
middle age.<BR>
<BR>
So, is football with its 40 pounds of armor safer than rugby?  Maybe it<BR>
is, I don't know the injury statistics for rugby, but in this case safe is<BR>
certainly relative.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller...IMTU gravball is more akin to handball than anything else,<BR>
ie non-contact.  I think most folks run it a little<BR>
differently. What other games are popular in YTU's?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:31:00 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: American Football (was: Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/21/99 at 09:21 PM,  Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>OTOH, given that the United States have a population of over 250 million,<BR>
>of whom about 2000 play American football at the professional level, it<BR>
>makes sense to armor said players, in order to keep from breaking them. <BR>
>After all, some of those players are paid several million dollars (US)<BR>
>each year.  Armoring the players is a reasonable way to protect that kind<BR>
>of investment.<BR>
<BR>
>Given that concept, it also makes sense to armor those high-school and<BR>
>college students who have a chance to ascend to that 2000-player plateau<BR>
>of professional football.<BR>
<BR>
In some cases the padding is more of a weapon than a protection, but<BR>
without it I know we'd be looking at multiple deaths every week. I'm not<BR>
exaggerating either.  When a 100 kg man runs full speed into several 150<BR>
kg men people are going to get hurt...badly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:32:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Death of Q<BR>
<BR>
On 12/21/1999 21:31, David J. Golden wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:49 pm 12/21/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Aargh! I missed that ... you realize this means they're not<BR>
> allowed<BR>
>>> to make any more Bond movies. Not that the recent ones really count<BR>
>>> anyway (gag).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> I liked the recent one & they do have a replacement for Q<BR>
> waiting on the<BR>
>> wings.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, but he won't be *Q*. There has always been just one Q--007 may<BR>
> come and go, as well as M, Moneypenney, and just about everybody<BR>
> else, but  Q is a constant ...<BR>
<BR>
That's right. R is played by none other than JOHN CLEESE and he was Q's<BR>
protege in "The World Is Not Enough." Turns out R is even worse of a bumbler<BR>
than Q ever was in his earlier days.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I'll miss Q too. "Pay Attention 007!"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:35:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
<BR>
On 12/21/1999 23:18, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 12/22/99 at 01:16 AM,  "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk> said:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> No you didn't, you gave them that strange game with body armour, a<BR>
>>> rugby ball and commercial breaks, and basketball.<BR>
> <BR>
>> <Giles> I've always found it odd that a nation which prides itself on its<BR>
>> virility feels it has to strap on forty pounds of body armour just to<BR>
>> play Rugby....</Giles><BR>
> <BR>
> Nick, we didn't wear those forty pounds of body armor when American<BR>
> Football was young.  No helmets, no padding.  After 18 young men died on<BR>
> college football fields during one season early this century people<BR>
> started agitating for the colleges to either ban the game or make it more<BR>
> safe.  First helmets, then pads, then face guards, more pads, until you<BR>
> get up to the 40 pounds of armor.<BR>
> <BR>
> This makes American football more safe than rugby?  This fall dozens of<BR>
> young men suffered broken arms, legs, wreaked knees and suffered<BR>
> concussions playing football here in my local area.  One 16 year old died<BR>
> during football practice, another is parapelgic. Multiply that by several<BR>
> thousand other communities across America. Every year college athletes<BR>
> suffer crippling injuries, some cause lifetime disabilities.  For<BR>
> professionals, concussions, temporary paralysis (there are "stingers" in<BR>
> almost every game now),<BR>
> compressed and fractured vertebra, fractures in hands, feet, arms and<BR>
> legs, broken ribs, ligament and cartilage damage and the threat of<BR>
> quadrapelgia are a constant threat throughout their careers.  If they play<BR>
> a whole career crippling disability almost a certainty before they reach<BR>
> middle age.<BR>
> <BR>
> So, is football with its 40 pounds of armor safer than rugby?  Maybe it<BR>
> is, I don't know the injury statistics for rugby, but in this case safe is<BR>
> certainly relative.<BR>
<BR>
The only thing missing from the opening ceremonial coin toss are the Roman<BR>
salute and the uttering, "We who are about to die salute you!" Given the<BR>
success of the NFL's American Bowl series, its sponsorship of the CFL, and<BR>
the NFL Europe League, I predict that within 20 years, you'll see NFL teams<BR>
franchised outside the United States.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:37:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> That's just what we *want* you to believe.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, you folks up north have it all figured out, don't you? You just wait.<BR>
Some of us down here are wise to your plot.<BR>
<BR>
> Here's more proof: The godfather of the Canadian contingent<BR>
>working in the US entertainment industry was Lorne Greene. Now, if<BR>
>you are not a US Citizen and want to work in the US, you need a<BR>
>document called a "Greene Card".<BR>
><BR>
> Coincidence???<BR>
><BR>
> Bwa-ha-ha and all that.<BR>
<BR>
While Lorne Greene is mighty,  and such a practice would be a fitting<BR>
tribute, your theory is unfortunately false. The truth is that the American<BR>
government spent a long time trying to come up with the proper color for<BR>
such a card. Red was considered, but quickly discarded as it was a commie<BR>
color. White was also considered, but white is the color of the lily, and<BR>
nobody wanted to associate America with lily-livered cowardice or the white<BR>
flag of surrender. They thought about blue for a while. It was almost the<BR>
Blue Card. Sadly, nobody could think of anything that was actually blue<BR>
though. As it turns out, due to rampant pollution our sea and skies were<BR>
turned a nasty brownish color.<BR>
<BR>
So, they finally settled on green, the color of American money. Let's face<BR>
it. American money is what *everybody* wants. It's why they leave the safety<BR>
of their pinko-communist countries and come here!<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: is there much cultural exchange between Imperial Space<BR>
>and Solomani Space? Do people in the Solomani Confederacy<BR>
>watch television shows from the Imperium (or vice versa)?  Or<BR>
>movies?<BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe that would be a big *yes*. The Solomani might be<BR>
able to come up with mean genetic modifications, but they can't come up with<BR>
Tom Jetland: High Passage.<BR>
<BR>
*Everybody* watches the Tom Jetland movies.<BR>
<BR>
Except the artsy types who watch those pansy movies like "Lady Jaenshi's<BR>
Holiday" or "Dresden's Decision", but they don't count.<BR>
<BR>
A big shiny TML "No-Prize" to anyone who knows the two in-jokes which are<BR>
encoded in the movie titles above.<BR>
<BR>
ObObTrav: Does anyone else pepper their Traveller universes with all manner<BR>
of in-jokes that nobody will ever get?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:46:57 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
At 02:43 am 12/22/99 -0000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>-----Original Message-----<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
>Date: 22 December 1999 00:54<BR>
>Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>At 16:52 -0500 21/12/99, "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>><On the subversion of the US by Canada you responded><BR>
>><BR>
>>>Don't forget we gave you football and basketball<BR>
>><BR>
>>No you didn't, you gave them that strange game with body armour, a<BR>
>>rugby ball and commercial breaks, and basketball.<BR>
>><BR>
>>*We* (the UK) gave them football, which is always played with a<BR>
round<BR>
>>ball, 22 men and a referee, in halves.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Eeeeewww... Icky! <g><BR>
<BR>
	I agree ... splitting the referee in halves makes a mess all over ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- As Dick Cavett put it so eloquently many years ago, "If violence<BR>
in TV and movies causes violence in the world, how come we don't see<BR>
random acts of situation comedy breaking out on the streets?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 23:53:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, I only skimmed the thread on Zhodani and Vilani races, but it<BR>
>occurs to me that just about every pic I've seen of either of these<BR>
>groups portrays a white person.  Did they have suns with lower UV<BR>
>or something? Or do we just have to accept that it's a<BR>
>marketing/artist's bias kinda thing?  Actually, the latter seems like<BR>
>the necessary explanation, as most Solomani are portrayed as white<BR>
>also...<BR>
<BR>
Sci-fi is, as a general rule, awfully white. Roleplaying is, as a general<BR>
rule, awfully white. The vast majority of drawings in roleplaying materials<BR>
are, as a general rule, awfully white.<BR>
<BR>
Stop me before I go into the Darth Vader speech from Chasing Amy.<BR>
<BR>
Suffice to say, I'd go with the second explanation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:04:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Well, this is *Traveller*, and you're on the TML, so there's only one<BR>
>real answer: white people have an evolutionary advantage, and other<BR>
>races just *naturally* became extinct.  What else explains it?<BR>
<BR>
Kenji, you always inject sanity, intelligence and good old-fashioned common<BR>
sense.<BR>
<BR>
> Wondering if a race war on the TML would be more interesting than<BR>
>a guns & Yanks flamewar.<BR>
<BR>
Only if I can work Yul Brynner into the discussion at one point or another.<BR>
I probably can. Yul was a very versatile actor. At one point he played the<BR>
King of Siam, and at another point he played an Indian chief. Yul was the<BR>
Man of a Thousand Races.<BR>
<BR>
So, yeah, I'm up for a race war!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The Solomani movement as a cryptic, albeit heavy-handed metaphor for<BR>
the White Supremacy movement.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:21:50 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the US in IY 1110 (was various)<BR>
<BR>
>> BTW, I only skimmed the thread on Zhodani and Vilani races, but it<BR>
>>occurs to me that just about every pic I've seen of either of these<BR>
>>groups portrays a white person.  Did they have suns with lower UV<BR>
>>or something? Or do we just have to accept that it's a<BR>
>>marketing/artist's bias kinda thing?  Actually, the latter seems like<BR>
>>the necessary explanation, as most Solomani are portrayed as white<BR>
>>also...<BR>
><BR>
>Sci-fi is, as a general rule, awfully white. Roleplaying is, as a general<BR>
>rule, awfully white. The vast majority of drawings in roleplaying materials<BR>
>are, as a general rule, awfully white.<BR>
>Stop me before I go into the Darth Vader speech from Chasing Amy.<BR>
>Suffice to say, I'd go with the second explanation.<BR>
<BR>
    It's the Barbie Doll Theory, they make one in a colour to suit you. I'm<BR>
sure Japanese RPGers see the majority of the races as asian and Nigerian<BR>
players see them as African. It doesn't matter what the illustrations are,<BR>
it's in your mind.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:07:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Being that this list isn't XXX rated, and most of you *really* don't<BR>
>> want to know, I'll refrain from listing any possiblitities.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, come on, Leonard -- this isn't an *entertainment* list, either; it's<BR>
> *science*.  Inquiring minds and stuff like that.  It's all about the<BR>
> search for truth and technical advantage.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but it'll take more than that for me to risk permanently<BR>
squicking members of the list. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 21:04:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Don't forget we gave you football and basketball<BR>
<BR>
Shhh! We're trying to get them to forget that!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:30:49 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Football( was Re: [OT] War of 1812)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>This makes American football more safe than rugby?  This fall dozens of<BR>
>young men suffered broken arms, legs, wreaked knees and suffered<BR>
>concussions playing football here in my local area.  One 16 year old died<BR>
>during football practice, another is parapelgic. Multiply that by several<BR>
>thousand other communities across America. Every year college athletes<BR>
>suffer crippling injuries, some cause lifetime disabilities.  For<BR>
>professionals, concussions, temporary paralysis (there are "stingers" in<BR>
>almost every game now),<BR>
>compressed and fractured vertebra, fractures in hands, feet, arms and<BR>
>legs, broken ribs, ligament and cartilage damage and the threat of<BR>
>quadrapelgia are a constant threat throughout their careers.  If they play<BR>
>a whole career crippling disability almost a certainty before they reach<BR>
>middle age.<BR>
><BR>
>So, is football with its 40 pounds of armor safer than rugby?  Maybe it<BR>
>is, I don't know the injury statistics for rugby, but in this case safe is<BR>
>certainly relative.<BR>
>Eris<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, we (Rugby) don't slam into each other any more, or they're not<BR>
supposed to. They've altered the rules drastically in favour of safety and a<BR>
good thing I'd have to say. In Gridiron the player's crunch into each other<BR>
frontally in a way that would get you suspended in Rugby, that and the fact<BR>
that Rugby tackles only occur if your holding the ball so your not liable to<BR>
be flattened from "Out-left-field" because your ready for it.<BR>
    One of the best days I've ever had was watching the NSW Gridiron team<BR>
get slaughtered by Iowa (State College I think), there was more Americans on<BR>
the field than Australians in the stands but we still had a great time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:29:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812<BR>
<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> > <jingoistic mode><BR>
><BR>
> Ooh, flamebait!<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I'm an American, I eat fire for *breakfast*!<BR>
<BR>
> <flamebait auto-response mode><BR>
><BR>
> Question: how much  of  the  American  entertainment  industry  is<BR>
> American?<BR>
<BR>
All the parts that count!<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm ... we've already had a list of non-American actors posing<BR>
>as Americans (could probably add others).<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, *posing* as Americans! In America, we call them *wannabes*. We go to<BR>
Jim Carrey movies and say, "Hahaha! Look at the crazy Canadian trying to be<BR>
an American."<BR>
<BR>
Okay. Not all of us do that, just most of us... alright, *some* of us.<BR>
<BR>
Oh. I think that's just me.<BR>
<BR>
> Location shots when not by that rock  in  California:  X-Files  is<BR>
> shot mainly in Canada,<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but Chris Carter wanted to move the show to California to be closer to<BR>
his love interest.<BR>
<BR>
>Earth 2 (well  I  liked  it)  was  shot  in Mexico I think, Matrix shot in<BR>
>Australia.<BR>
<BR>
It's the American way to shoot movies where they're nice and cheap to shoot.<BR>
Sheesh. Most of Escape from New York was shot on the streets of St. Louis!<BR>
Yeah, that's right, over in France!<BR>
<BR>
> Studios: Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Aliens, ... shot in UK.<BR>
<BR>
That's because those films all took place in England. Geez!<BR>
<BR>
> Seems like the  "American"  entertainment  industry  is  really  a<BR>
> global entertainment industry that packages itself as American  to<BR>
> get around the average American's stunted  education.  See  recent<BR>
> TML thread about people  thinking  "Saving  Private  Ryan"  was  a<BR>
> Vietnam War film and the bad  guys  were  Japs,<BR>
<BR>
See the thread? SEE the thread? I lived it! That was *my* post!<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly enough when Rambo: First Blood Part II was released in some<BR>
Asian markets the script was changed. As it turns out Rambo was saving POWs<BR>
from the Japanese in World War II. So... um... it can work in reverse! In<BR>
the African market they didn't even bother to translate it. It did amazingly<BR>
well among on that continent despite the language barrier.<BR>
<BR>
There's an ObTrav (an Obvious Traveller reference) in there.<BR>
<BR>
>James  Bond  film "Licence Revoked" was renamed "Licence To<BR>
>Kill" cos most Americans asked don't know what 'revoked' means,<BR>
<BR>
Nah, that's because most people would think it was a *driving* movie!<BR>
Besides, we in America are *all about* killing. We all carry our licenses to<BR>
kill in our wallets, for crying out loud! 007 is much cooler when he's<BR>
killing people than when he's driving without a license.<BR>
<BR>
Sheesh.<BR>
<BR>
>"The Madness Of King George III" was renamed "The Madness Of<BR>
>King George" cos  most  Americans asked said they wouldn't see it<BR>
>before seeing the first two  films<BR>
<BR>
That's not actually *true*... is it?<BR>
<BR>
(In all seriousness, I do remember reading about that. The studio claimed<BR>
they did no such survey, and they wouldn't have cared to do it. They cited<BR>
another reason for the name change, which I forget. They obviously changed<BR>
their story because they feared the collective rage of America when their<BR>
national pride was challenged.)<BR>
<BR>
> ... I could go on.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, and so could I... and that's scary. Let's just call it a draw, shall<BR>
we?<BR>
<BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> (Appologies if anyone offended, was ment in jest.)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, you say that now. My apologies, I just got back from Christmas<BR>
shopping and I lugged around an obscenely expensive big hunk of stone in the<BR>
shape of an angel (a perfect near-c rock candidate) for hours. I'm surly and<BR>
sore.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100<BR>
<BR>
http://www.theonion.com/onion3121/billgates.html<BR>
<BR>
    Damn I hate Munchkin players!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 01:04:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: FW: moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
I got this from my brother, and it seemed interesting considering the<BR>
current War of 1812 OT-isness.<BR>
<BR>
No, there isn't an ObTrav on it. I'll post some on-topic stuff later, I<BR>
promise...<G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From:	Joe Gilbreth [SMTP:jgilbreth@prodigy.net]<BR>
Sent:	Monday, December 20, 1999 6:39 PM<BR>
To:	Moderator WP-ORG<BR>
Cc:	Louis Michael; Jay Willis; Lew Casbon; John Maurer<BR>
Subject:	moderator: America, as seen by a Canadian<BR>
<BR>
This was posted to the '49 list by John Maurer '49.<BR>
<BR>
Joe Gilbreth '49<BR>
- ---------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
AMERICA<BR>
<BR>
This comes from a Canadian newspaper about America.  A remarkable<BR>
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian<BR>
television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant<BR>
remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the<BR>
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the<BR>
earth.<BR>
<BR>
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted<BR>
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of<BR>
dollars and forgave other billions in debts.  None of these countries is<BR>
today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United<BR>
States.  When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the<BR>
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and<BR>
swindled on the streets of Paris.  I was there.  I saw it.<BR>
<BR>
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that<BR>
hurries in to help.  This spring, 59 American communities were flattened<BR>
by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy<BR>
pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries.  Now newspapers<BR>
in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering<BR>
Americans.  I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating<BR>
over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.<BR>
Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing<BR>
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas 10?  If so, why don't<BR>
they fly them?  Why do all the International Airlines except Russia fly<BR>
American planes?  Why does no other land on earth even consider putting<BR>
a man or woman on the moon?<BR>
<BR>
You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios.  You talk about<BR>
German technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American<BR>
technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several<BR>
times-and safely home again.  You talk about scandals, and the Americans<BR>
put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even<BR>
their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.  They are here on our<BR>
streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are<BR>
getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.<BR>
<BR>
When the railways of France, Germany & India were breaking down through<BR>
age, it was the American who rebuilt them.  When the Pennsylvania<BR>
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old<BR>
caboose.  Both are still broke.  I can name you 5000 times when the<BR>
Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.  Can you name me<BR>
even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?  I<BR>
don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco<BR>
earthquake.<BR>
<BR>
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned<BR>
tired of hearing them get kicked around.  They will come out of this<BR>
thing with their flag high.  And when they do, they are entitled to<BR>
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present<BR>
troubles.  I hope Canada is not one of those.  Stand proud, Americans!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*** MODERATOR post by: GILBRETH Jr Joseph H 1949 16782 <jgilbreth@prodigy.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
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Visit our Organ Donor site today and register!  <BR>
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<BR>
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*** USMA1990 post by: HALL JR David A 1990 47276 A4 <dave@hallsmart.com> <BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________________<BR>
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Group userid/passwd access to Web Restricted Areas is <BR>
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__________________________________________________________________<BR>
Service provided by WP-ORG Inc., PO Box 609, Moneta, VA 24121<BR>
<BR>
Have you considered how much GOOD organ donors provide for mankind?  <BR>
Visit our Organ Donor site today and register!  <BR>
<BR>
     http://www.west-point.org/organdonor/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1548<BR>
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